Question 5:
Do you see an increase in the number of H1-B visas issued a part of comprehensive immigration reform?
Sen. George Allen's Response-"I am an original sponsor of the "Securing Knowledge, Innovation and Leadership" bill to expand the number of visas allowed for high-tech workers educated in the United States who are employed as part of the H1-B visa program. We need to strengthen education to make this country more competitive and make sure that highly skilled workers, and their jobs, remain in the U.S. "
Jim Webb's Response-"I do not support guest worker programs. This applies to H1-B visas, except in the most extraordinary circumstances. I do not believe the myth of the tech worker shortage. Our priority as a society should to be to invest in and improve domestic technical and scientific education programs so that there are enough qualified job applicants available from the pool of domestic labor.
The primary concern of our government in terms of immigration is to secure our border. Until that is accomplished, and the status of the 12 million illegal immigrants already in America is resolved, guest worker programs are counterproductive."
*Please note that the Chamber asked 5 questions and limited the responses of both candidates to 600 words for all 5 questions. Because we limited the overall word count, their responses vary in length. Additionally, their responses have not been edited by Chamber staff in any way.
108 comments:
It's indeed a myth that there's a shortage of competent engineers and scientists to fill needed labor roles in the U.S. Despite being a computer programming genius, I've been forced out of the software field altogether, as the imperative of 99.9% of "American" HR departments is to replace American workers with docile foreigners who will gladly work for half-pay.
Indentured servitude is alive and well in the U.S.
Jim Webb tells it like it is on the H1-B issue.
While I don't agree with Sen. Allen's support for H-1B visas, I'm even more unimpressed with Jim Webb's response to the question.
Jim Webb used this phrase in his response "and the status of the 12 million illegal immigrants already in America is resolved". The status of those 12 million illegal aliens doeesn't need to be "resolved". They are illegally in this nation. They should voluntarily return home or be deported. Webb's words are code for support of an immigration reform bill that would give legal status and a path to citizenship to 12 million illegal aliens.
From a Texas Minutenan:
Hey, "11:14 PM, Anonymous" commenter. Please re-read the section you noted. I don't get the same understanding you did.
As for the traitor Allen, he should be added to the Hal Turner list (http://www.worldnetdaily.com/news/article.asp?ARTICLE_ID=52680).
H1-B is terrible, a "quick fix" for a
serious problem. It encourage sloppiness in the US education system and postpones the reckoning to the future, kind of like the budget deficit leaves us the national debt does for monetary issues. Also using imported workers ultimately costs more than using home grown workers, whatever they are paid.
The whole issue of importing foreign workers is because under the WTO corporate trading system, corporations don't compete. It is countries that must compete to be 'service providers' to the transnational corporations. The competition is on which country can supply the cheapest, most malleable stable of workers.
There is no shortage of workers per se in the U.S. The 'shortage' is of people who will work for the wage rates paid in China and India. You can't live in the United States on that kind of money. But that doesn't matter to the multinational corporations. They would rather destroy our economy with the export of jobs and the importation of cheap labor than to pay U.S. wages.
The importation of foreign workers on visas is a band-aid on an amputation. It won't work for the long run - and neither will the false solution of 'more education'.
The only solution is to collapse the WTO corporate trading system and to get legislators who work for the American people rather than the multinational corporations.
Forget the fact that Allen is for the guest worker program; even without that stance on this issue he is a divisive character and a racist at best and stirs up divisiveness by using the term 'makaka' to mock a full blooded American.
This guy needs to be tried for hate crimes.
WEBB is WRONG when he says America's priority should be `improving' education.
What America needs are technical jobs that are open to Americans, and are in the US. We have already, tremendous, tragically underutilized expertise, and if the jobs are there the younger generation will certainly rise to the occasion and also acquire the necessary skills. If the likelihood of employment when one finishes remains as low as it is currently, who's going to be interested in getting the education?
I am very glad that you have posted these quotes from the candidates and the comments from the people. This issue affects so many people. It should be brought to the attention of all the voters that the H-1B visa holders are replacing US citizens. The people that are getting displaced should look to Mr Webb as a Senator who could help them get their jobs back.
Outsourcing and the use of H-1B's are actually causing students to leave technical and scientific fields. Why spend years in a difficult field of study and graduate with huge student loans only to find that companies prefer to hire cheap foreign labor? So prevalent are these practices that some companies actually advertise in such a way that only H-1B's qualify.
The problem is that US corporations show more loyalty to higher profits than to the US's future as a high-tech power.
Thanks to Mr. Webb for exposing the "SKIL" Bill for the fraud that it is -- purporting to save jobs while doing the opposite. The treachery of the university-industrial complex goes even further because they now want to give away security-sensitive jobs to foreigners. Follow instructions:
1) Go to this page: http://www.regulations.gov/
2) Select the radio button for "All Documents (Open and Closed for
Comment)"
3) Go to the Agency drop down list and Select "Defense Acquisition
Regulations Systems"
4) Go to the Document Type drop down list and select "All Document Types"
5) In Keyword field type the case number you would like to view. Type in
"2004-D010" without quotes.
6) Select the radio button for "Any Word"
7) Click on the Submit button
8) Click the documents listed in the Views column.
The H-1B visa program is used to increase the supply, and thus reduce the compensation, for skilled American workers. Congress colludes with their donors to manipulate the market for skilled workers.
At the same time companies are laying off workers they are screaming "skills shortage". The fact of the matter is, in hi-tech fields there will always be a skills shortage because technology moves so fast it is impossible to both (a) do your job and (b) keep up with the latest trends and (c) have a life.
No wonder Americans don't want to go into science and engineering. Would you spend $50,000, four years of busting your rump in school, only to get out of college and find you are competing H-1B visa holders for a job? Of course not. The H-1B visa program has eliminated all the incentive for such an investment.
Is there a real "shortage" of high technology workers or a "shortage" of people willing to work for a depressed salary in a high cost of living area? H1-Bs don't try to buy property and they compare their "salary" to "back home" rates. This is the same reason our southern border is flooded by "unofficial H1-Bs" working in the agricultural arena. A lack of investment in national talent will cause it to wither and die - eventually the whole business employing H1B's will move to the low-cost source of labor due to the ethic of chasing the lowest cost labor to maximize profit margin. Eventually the stock holders will call for "low-cost" business leadership - I'm sure an Indian CEO expects less than an American one... I'm not sure what will be left of American business - IBM just announced the relocation of their entire HR department to China along with the VP that runs it!
You must not be a tech-worker yourself if you believe one cannot `keep-up,' work, and live at the same time: it's another one of those urban legends planted by the H1b proponents. If you are not keeping-up you aren't really working: the two are at least under the best conditions inherently intertwined. (Maintaining a life, too, takes discipline, admittedly.)
Employers are however often extremely short-sighted when it comes to recognizing a `skill': if they were to hire a carpenter they would ask what brand and model of hammer was used on your last job, and insist it be the same as that they intend on employing. As I've always observed it, the most valuable contributors on a project are those with the best grasp of the relevant fundamentals and the ability to apply that knowledge to the problems at hand---and not necessarily those with the most recent experience with the specific tools being used.
My brother who spent thousands of dollars obtaining a software engineering degree is a victim of the H1-B Visa scam. He is out of work because he was replaced by an engineer from India at half the wages.
I think anyone who is against the H1-B Visa is a Hero (Webb) and anyone who is for it is a Traitor (Allen).
Is that clear enough for you guys?
When they say the SKIL bill `saves' or creates jobs they are saying that guestworkers get the technical jobs and Americans get the marketing, PR, and financing work (though much of that could go offshore too), and the unskilled jobs like installing the corporate headquarters' carpet and taking out the trash if their aren't enough illegals in the neighborhood.
The anti-immigrationists who have posted their socialist fantasies on this comment thread should be deported. Socialism is a European import and fosters fundamentalist fanatics. Real Americans love the free market. Deport all anti-immigrationist traitors!
If you want to make a free market case, American Parrot, do it honestly without made-up `shortages,' and let Americans compete in it on their merits without defaming their skills. Milton Friedman has called the H1b a _subsidy_, BTW, in light of the market `imperfections' mentioned in various previous posts.
I'm very amaazed at the removable of Rob Sanchez comments. This tell me this blog is focus on providing incorrect information.
Or maybe your an H1-B and want to hide the real truth.
It is a recognized fact, and acknowledged by the Programmers Guild among others, that the H-1B visa program is nothing more than a corporate subsidy for cheap labor. Sadly, many lobbying groups on behalf of corporations are spinning the facts and conveniently leaving out the facts that middle class Americans see.
Paul Craig Roberts states that in simplistic language, the government job growth projections say there will be 22,200 new programming job per year, yet there are still at least 65,000 H-1B visas being issued. That's a DEFICIT of 43,000 jobs, and THAT means those 43,000 jobs will be filled with H-1B visa holders by taking jobs from Americans.
"American employees have been abandoned by American corporations and by their representatives in Congress. America remains a land of opportunity but for foreigners, not for the native born. A country whose work force is concentrated in domestic nontradable services has no need for scientists and engineers and no need for universities." -- Paul Craig
The whole page has now degenerated into `objectionable content': perhaps they will delete it all; otherwise I don't see how they cannot but honorably restore the Sanchez and Gene Nelson contributions.
H1-B is a scam, and a danger.
H1-B workers are classified as "non-immigrants" but remain legally in the US for 6 or more years.
Obviously, anyone who stays in the US for 6 years has moved his life here. He is an immigrant in reality. Classifying him as a non-immigrant is a scam, and a danger.
Caught in this legal limbo, H1-B workers are forced to pay taxes but do not enjoy the right to vote.
H1-B becomes Taxation Without Representation,
Didn't we already have one Revolution to drive out that injustice? What, Senator Allen, makes you think there would not be another?
Texas Minuteman, thanks for the comments about my comments. I definitely do not agree with Sen. Allen regarding H-1B visas, however, Sen. Allen has generally voted against helping illegal aliens.
Sen. Allen voted against the Senate's 2006 "iimigration reform bill" that would have given legal status and a path to citizenship for millions of illegal aliens. Thirty-five (35) Republicans voted against that amnesty bill and twenty-three (23) Republicans voted for it. On the other hand, forty-one (41) Democrats voted for that amnesty bill, while only four (4) voted agasinst it.
I would enjoy reading any quotes from Mr. Webb regarding his position on givng legal status and a path to citizenhsip for illegal aliens. I particularly want to know his position regarding the "immigration reform" bill passed by the Senate.
H-1B may have many faults, but for all its faults, it is still a good program - better than not having it. The folks who are posting here seem to believe that jobs in American corporations belong to Americans. THAT is called socialism. American jobs belong to American employers - and will go the best employees that the American employers can get. If those on this thread are not good enough for American employers, then they have no right to those jobs. And those who want to turn American into a socialist paradise should immediately be deported. Un-American ideas like "American jobs for American workers" have no place in this thread or in this country.
Interesting...I see that the admins haven't removed ALL of the blogs that are ant-H-1B, just most of them so I'll try...
The corporations that are running and ruining the country have pushed for enhanced (read more) visas of all types to fill imaginary job shortages.
The shortage shouters in the chambers of commerce around the country care nothing for the effects of their lies but real people - with real up to date skills are being thrown out of work every day by faceless corporate titans - all to save a few dollars.
For shame business owners...for shame corporate whores and shame on those who continue to argue that we need more people in this country.
There isn't a single job in this country that an American won't do. But Americans don't like to work for 3rd world wages with no health care.
In the race to the bottom the globalists who are behind this don't seem to realize that without a vibrant middle class - there won't be anyone to buy their products and services.
They have setup this country for a huge implosion but what do they and their shills in the chambers of congress care? You will all grow wealthy...for a while.
The coming backlash won't be pretty and I hope true Americans like Mr. Webb will be around to help the country clean up the mess that the globalists have made.
Poll after poll have said American's want a dramatic reduction in legal (and illegal) immigration. Why? Because real people are being hurt by the massive numbers of people being let into the country by globalists and the political whores who do their bidding.
Blogs are supposed to be about a free flow of information. If you are afraid of my words then I am sure you will delete this message. But if you have any guts then you won't mind a valid debate on the issues and allow my words to stand.
I hope it's the latter but from your deleting other posts I guess you are so afraid of the weakness of your arguments that you can't allow anyone else to speak.
Talk about cut and running, if you delete this you are cowards and most defintely not patriots.
I think we need to get our facts straight.
The H-1B program is destroying the engineering profession. It is basic indentured servitude for them... and it is unemployment and greatly reduced pay for us Americans.
Corporations are misinforming the public and public officials that there is some desperate need for foreign engineers when in fact , there is not.
I personally know hundreds of engineers that were forced out of their jobs because companies preferred the H-1B engineers over American engineers.
There are hundreds of thousands of displaced engineers and tech workers. They have lost their homes, their wives, their lives, and now work in other areas.
We do NOT need foreign workers in this discipline!
We need the government to STOP working for corporations and start representing us!
BTW: It is also an unconstitutional law.
It has been proven by the GAO that the H-1B program is rife with abuse.
It is an unconstitutional law.
It has destroyed many carreers in America.
The H-1B engineers only come here for the money. Most of them hate America and what it stands for. They are NOT the best and brightest.
Corporations use H-1Bs as indentured servants, forcing them to work 60 hrs a week. Corporations consistently fire Americans and hire H-1Bs.
The Engineering profession is the worst profession to be in at this point in American history. Engineers are described as and treated like "Resources", not people.
Mathematically intelligent American students know better than to enter Engineering, Computer Science or Physics. Most American students stear clear of those majors because of the indignities that they hear about.
You may have heard the story of the engineer who trained his H-1B replacement, then went out to the parking lot and shot himself in the head.
Your story on the H-1b "program" is short-sighted, narrow-minded, and miopic.
Read the constitution before writing on the H-1B scam. It is unconstitutional.
I want you to know that the H-1B program has devastated my life and my career.
The government should NOT meddle in the Engineering business and just let natural "supply and demand" take effect.
If NO H-1B laws were passed, then engineers would be making a decent wage (wages haven't changed in over 10 years) and then hundreds of thousands of college students would enter engineering.
The H-1B law discourages anyone in this country to go into engineering.
Many of those entering the US with an H-1B visa have told me personally that they have NO affinity for our country and do NOT care what it stands for. In fact many have confided in me that they hate America. They're only goal in coming here is to make more money.
In addition, many of these engineers are a security risk due to their proximity to radical muslim groups in Southeast Asia and the Middle East.
I've always loved this great country of ours and what we stand for. Now I find it hard to define what it is that we stand for anymore.
Nobody cares about the American worker anymore.
The corporations now control America.
What happened to my beloved country?
Let's just change our name to:
"The United Corporations of America"
The H-1B increase to 195,000 was passed in a midnight vote in 1999 by a margin of 99-1. That includes all the democrats and all the republicans.
The H-1B program is an unconstitutional law, but nobody cares.
Everything that congress does is done only for the rich. The citizen's are completely disregarded.
I guess you can call me one of the few lucky ones left in IT. Lucky in that I still have a job but what's the reality?
I am making $20,000 less a year than I made over 6 years ago.
3 years ago I refused an involuntary 40% pay cut and quit my last job. My replacement suprisingly came to work that afternoon. The CEO of the small company knew what my response to the pay cut would be and he had an H-1B waiting to take over.
I was forced to come back the following week and train him or they wouldn't give me my last paycheck. Strange that the 'genius' foreigners couldn't figure out what I was doing and needed me to show him how to do things.
Of course it was illegal but try and fight it w/o a paycheck.
I found work but had to move 3000 miles away and I'm making $20K a year less now than over 6 years ago.
What is the result? My family scrapes by each month and we have next to nothing for anything else than rent, food and clothes.
I won't tell you how much I went into debt to get my engineering degree but being at the very bottom of the lower middle class is not where I thought all that education would bring me.
Kudos to Webb and the few other true American Patriots out there who will fight against the rich bastards who are screwing up America.
There's a type in your headline text...
PolicySoup is the blog of the Fairfax County Chamber of Commerce's Government Affairs Department. It is dedicated to the collision of Northern Virginia business, government and politics.
Should be:
PolicySoup is the blog of the Fairfax County Chamber of Commerce's Government Affairs Department. It is dedicated to the collusion of Northern Virginia business, government and politics.
haha...there's a typo in my type rant...
"type" should be "typo"
Hmmm, American Patriot seems to confuse socialism with government of any kind.
Shouldn't we just have organized the United States as a corporation and have done with it?
The whole H1B legislation is a perfect example of a government-directed outcome devised for the benefit of one group. It is the exact opposite of the 'free market'. It both enables and encourages one group (corporations) to take actions imnical to the interests of another (workers). Talk about your state-mandated outcomes!
No H1B is not an example of government directed outcome devised to benefit one group. If there was a truly free labor market, and no socialist restriction on immigration, immigrant workers would be able to come here to take jobs without a H1B visa. H1B is bad, but not as bad as no visa at all. Government should NOT intermediate between corporations and workers. We should have laissez faire with government staying out of ALL economic issues. That is what being American is all about. The idea that socialistic interventions by government (a tautology) is okay is only possible to the anti-immigrationists of today, who have been brainwashed by the Marxists running the American education system. Deport the Marxists! Deport the anti-immigrationists!
Jim Webb is correct, there is no shortage of American IT workers.
Consider that between the years 2000 and 2005 the starting salary for computer science graduates has declined. If there really was a shortage of IT workers companies would be agressively bidding up the starting salaries of computer science graduates.
I am a Republican of over 30 years.
I am astounded at how much corporation influence there is in Washington and how our representatives like Allen tout the corporate mantras and completely disregard American citizens like these people who have posted here.
I will NOT vote for Allen or any Replublican who continues to say that we need to import foreign engineers and tech workers.
It is simply NOT true.
I can't say I like the Democrats any better, but at least they acknowledge what the GAO and everyone here already seems to know. "H-1B is a scam perpetrated on the American public. It is welfare for tech companies."
My husband's employer has laid-off about 70% of it's American high tech workforce and REPLACED them with cheaper workers imported from India using H-1b and L-1 Visas. They told him he'd survived and only gave about half his work to the Indians; claiming the systems he kept were too critical to put in the hands of these entry-level workers.
Last Friday, he was just told that they're now giving the rest of his work to the Indians but they are keeping him on to train them. These are not "high skilled" workers, they are very low skilled, entry workers that need extensive training.
Thanks Senator Allen, for supporting the elitist agenda to replace middleclass American workers with millions of imported 3rd world workers. Thanks alot.
My son is very sick and needs life saving medications that will cost around $2,000 a month without health insurance.
Outsourcing is NOT good for America, and regarding ourselves, outsourcing could KILL our son. There's NO WAY we can afford $2,000 a month in medications on a measely $260 a week unemployment check. Heck, that won't even pay our mortgage, let alone $700 a month for health insurance for our family.
I think this makes decisions pretty clear, if you support Americans working in jobs in America.
My earlier post that stated theirty-five (35) Senate Republicans voted against the amnesty bill was incorrect. Thirty-two (32) Senate Republicans voted against the amensty bill.
It's a scam for one party to support illegal aliens taking American jobs and the other party to support visas for foreign workers to take American jobs.
It all boils down to the same thing... foreign cheap labor being imported to take American jobs.
As it pertains to the issue of foreign cheap labor taking American jobs, there is no difference between Webb and Allen.
Illegal aliens allowed to walk across the border and the visa program for foreign workers serves the same purpose. That purpose is to replace American citizens in the labor market; to drive wages down; and to decrease the expectations of Americas for a successful life.
That's what globalization is about - redistribution and leveling of working wages and staggering, unimaginable profits for the 200 or so multinational corporations that will control all economic activity within the next 20 years or so.
from the so-called 'American Patriot'...
>>>No H1B is not an example of government directed outcome devised to benefit one group. If there was a truly free labor market, and no socialist restriction on immigration, immigrant workers would be able to come here to take jobs without a H1B visa. H1B is bad, but not as bad as no visa at all. Government should NOT intermediate between corporations and workers. We should have laissez faire with government staying out of ALL economic issues. That is what being American is all about. The idea that socialistic interventions by government (a tautology) is okay is only possible to the anti-immigrationists of today, who have been brainwashed by the Marxists running the American education system. Deport the Marxists! Deport the anti-immigrationists!
<<<
All visa's may not be bad but millions of them a year are. They cause displacement of Americans from our workforce and it is the cause of a serious degradation of our middle class.
What do you call the intervention by our government in the domestic labor pool that has pushed millions of middle class Americans to the edge of poverty and beyond? That's socialism for the rich and transnational corporations.
After people get fed up with the 'new world order', the newer world order will string up traitors such as yourself. I don't want to deport you but I wouldn't mind seeing you and your kind swinging from a rope.
I was a republican 30 years ago but gave up on the party when Reagan wouldn't retaliate against predatory policies the Japanese had on the US semiconductor market in the early 80's. It drove entire industries out of the US and I as a small business owner lost a bundle when the Japanese increased prices after they destroyed their US competitors.
I switched to the dems for economic issues but now that the dems are pretty much unified in their fight for unrestricted immigration I don't know where to turn.
I would pick Webb over his hideous challenger any day just for the one comment on the H-1B program.
But the reality is if the dems take back the house they will likely work with Bush on his 'screw-America' immigration policy. And the Senate (Aside from Webb and a few others) is so entrenched in the pockets of the globalists that I don't see anything good coming out of the next session.
I sure wish there was a political party that gave a damn about us poor old Americans.
At 1:00 PM, American Patriot said...
No H1B is not an example of government directed outcome devised to benefit one group.
---
WTF, who do you think is benefiting from the unlimited immigration policy this country has right now?
Oh, right - I get it. You refuse to accept that transnational entities can have any controls placed on them by local companies...I mean countries.
Big business is making a killing from unrestricted immigration and regular Americans are being pushed down and out of middle class jobs in favor of foreigners who will work for a fraction of what Americans used to be paid for the same job.
Big business in the world is going to see a social revolution soon. Wait until a few more million Americans are outsourced/insourced/laid off and watch what happens. It won't be pretty but it will change things.
Somebody please explain to the person who calls himself American Patriot that under a completely laissez faire system, he would be a slave.
I think the cowards who removed messages on this blog should explain why they did it or they should restore them.
>>At 1:42 PM, Anonymous said...
I think the cowards who removed messages on this blog should explain why they did it or they should restore them.
<<
Those of us who likewise posted what some would consider anti-H-1B messages will probably all be deleted as well. I think the cowards who run the Chambers of Commerce did not want or think that this would actually promote a dialog on the subject.
Since it's pretty much 100% of the posts that are anti-H-1B they may have a hard time deleting everything but take a look tomorrow morning and see if anything is left or if the site is even up anymore.
Guest worker visas shift economic and political power away from the general population of a nation, into the hands of a few. It forms a competition to be lowest paid worker in the world while corporations tell workers they no longer have a right to a job in their own nation. They are part of a failed economic policy which has undermined democracy so much through out the world that even the WTO has decided to disband. Americans dictate their rights not corporations. Americans dictate their right to abandon policies through which practically all the gains in household income have gone to the top 20%, leaving 4/5ths of nation’s household incomes to stagnate since 1975, while inflation has not. Senator Allen’s response that Americans need to reeducate ignores that fact that many Americans have upgraded their skills and training all along, in fact innovated the tech industry and markets, and still were forced to train foreign replacements, before being laid off. Jim Webb’s response shows he has the ability to recognize what is counterproductive to our nation and democracy in general.
All this talk about deportation...
Deport the "American Patriot"!
My business has been destroyed by companies that use H-1B workers to drive down wages in the U.S.
It is truly unfortunate that there are 535 members of Congress who are ostensibly sent to Washington to represent "We the People"...
In reality the 60,000 lobbyists on K Street actually write most of the laws and determine which legislation gets passed.
http://americanprogrammer.blogspot.com
<< Since it's pretty much 100% of the posts that are anti-H-1B they may have a hard time deleting everything but take a look tomorrow morning and see if anything is left or if the site is even up anymore.>>
More than likely we will see deletion of messages when the administrators in Bombay get back to work. That will be about midnight.
What is very sad is that the same misguided free trade policies that have cost American jobs here have devastated workers in other countries. The NAFTA agreement basically destroyed the lives of millions of subsistence farmers who couldn't make a living once cheaper (and subsidized) grain was imported into Mexico. And where did the millions of displaced farmers go? First to the big cities in Mexico and then north of the border.
When you look at it from a globalist perspective, it has been a rip-roaring success. NAFTA increased the profits of the big companies and at the same time forcing the poor from Mexico and Central America to head north for work...displacing the already working poor in America because they will work for next to nothing.
Ross Perot was right, there was a giant sucking sound of jobs heading south. But then the jobs went to China because instead of having to pay a dollar an hour for labor, the globalists only had to pay pennies on the dollar. God help the Chinese if they find aliens who will work for free.
Win-Win for the globalists....uh oh, now with all that wealth the Chinese are increasing their military spending and we will no doubt respond in kind.
So that 'free labor' has:
A) Destroyed the the working poor and middle class in America.
B) Destroyed the life of those in Mexico/Central America.
C) Put tons of money in the coffers of a Communist state.
Humm, the conspiracist in me is getting the feeling that this is all a plot to keep the non ultra-wealthy down in the US. Make us pay for endless wars and then keep us all near poverty.
What's left to increase profits? Why should transnational corporations even have to pay salaries. Why don't they bring back slavery and force people to live in tents. I know it's pretty bad in some Chinese factories right now but for gosh sakes the company has to PAY for work. It's an outrage, it's just mad....
Better stop giving them ideas, you never know what will be next.
Here's the latest anti-worker move...
http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/15483469/?from=ET
Another 1100 out of work...oops, I mean 1100 Americans out of work. Soon to be increased are the numbers of Chinese tire workers.
Now, if we had a reasonable trade policy in the US instead of the WTO mandated free trade crap, we would just slap a tariff on Chinese imports to prevent them from flooding the market with tires that cost less than we could produce them here for.
But that would keep those 1100 undesirable jobs in the US. Guess tire making is just another kind of job that "Americans won't do".
Another few years of this insanity and what will be left? Stop the insanity now.
Can't wait until we can outsource the house and senate!
The Chinese are DOOMED. Just read an article over the weekend that Vietnam is shortly to join the WTO and strip off their tariffs. Now Vietnam can join China and India in the race to the bottom. Yum, 84 million more-or-less homogenous people very used to the idea of being controlled! A veritable paradise for the multinationals. More ultra-cheap clothes, toys & geegaws for Wallet-Mart to squeeze the last penny out of. "Hey guys, forget Bejing. Let's pack up for Hanoi before somebody else gets there first. Now what's the name of their currency we have to pay bribes in?"
>>At 3:59 PM, Anonymous said...
The Chinese are DOOMED. Just read an article over the weekend that Vietnam is shortly to join the WTO and strip off their tariffs. Now Vietnam can join China and India in the race to the bottom. Yum, 84 million more-or-less homogenous people very used to the idea of being controlled! A veritable paradise for the multinationals. More ultra-cheap clothes, toys & geegaws for Wallet-Mart to squeeze the last penny out of. "Hey guys, forget Bejing. Let's pack up for Hanoi before somebody else gets there first. Now what's the name of their currency we have to pay bribes in?"
<<
OMG, I was joking about them bringing back slavery but I guess if the transnationals under the guise of the WTO can keep raping one country after another they will continue until we're all replaced with robots, or slaves - whichever are cheaper to maintain.
The folks in Washington have lost sight of a primary purpose of a national government, to "preserve and protect" its citizens. Not only does the H-1B visa sabotage the careers of well-qualified technical workers and discourage talented youngsters from pursuing scientific, mathematical, and engineering degrees, it creates an opportunity for undermining U.S. security. Every job I’ve had in sensitive industries, from oil refineries to power plants to nuclear clean-up sites has tasked me with writing map-based documentation of explosive, toxic, and/or highly flammable materials. A politically active H-1B worker loyal to our enemies could do some major damage to our infrastructure or kill a number of co-workers in these plants if they got hold of these documents in the course of their own work. Conversely, employed as I once was, they could embed disinformation in the system and make it very dangerous or impossible for emergency workers to contain an accidental chemical release or fire.
H-1B as it was once implemented, making it possible for foreign students at our universities to remain in this country to complete their thesis work, was a cooperative policy that benefited the student, the university, and the corporation associated with the technology transfer. Now the profit goes to the middlemen: the lawyers, body shops, and scam artists who prey on the unsophisticated intellectuals and idealists who come to this country hoping to find a better lifestyle. Raising the cap on H-1B visas will serve to increase the number of predators.
Meanwhile, the work I do gets dumbed down to less and less challenging content, matching the lowest-common-denominator capabilities of the least-qualified, over-credentialed H-1B colleague.
I've been reading this blog for a while now, and national issues never get many comments. And all of a sudden all of these come on an issue posted a while ago.
Looks like this is part of a coordinated effort to make a case on this blog. That's fine, but let's all be honest here.
As to the actual discussion - there is a tech worker shortage and some of the comments miss the fundamental free market argument, so here it is...
If I'm company X and I want to hire person Y, any gov't interference in that is a violation of the free market. If the gov't does that because person Y's country violates human rights, that may be a good enough reason to violate the open market, but it still violates the market. To say "Let's have the free market but limit it to Americans doesn't shake out."
Right now the US says that 65,000 smart people who have jobs waiting for them can enter the country. Why it is good to have 65k smart people, but not 150k is beyond me.
American schools don't put out enough engineers or scientists. They haven't for a while, so companies look at talent that was trained in America but born elsewhere. And you know something -- if those visa recipients go back to their country or origin, they are some of our best ambassadors.
The arguments against H1b visas are just as greedy as the arguments for them. On the one hand, you say companies are greedy because they want the maximum profit - aren't you arguing for the maximum wage for yourself? Of course in the world of populist politics, that doesn't really matter.
Some of the comments on this thread perfectly illustrate the socialist inclinations of the posters. One want me to "swing from a rope" always a favorite of KGB and other assorted socialist thugs. Another warns of a coming "social revolution" another favorite of those who want to use physical force against market forces. Still another bemoans that there is no party caring "about us poor old Americans" - one of the staples of socialist agitators wanting the government to intervene whenever they lose in the marketplace. Yet another decries NAFTA - socialists have never been fond of free trade.
The anti-immigrationists here apparently do not want to realize that globalization is going to descend on them whether they like it or not (and that whether we have no immigration, or limited immigration or unlimited immigration is NOT going to make any difference to their salaries in the long run). It is sad to see so many people in America accept socialist fallacies - America is the land of the free. All those who want socialist utopias should be deported!
.... At 4:27 PM, Anonymous said...
As to the actual discussion - there is a tech worker shortage and some of the comments miss the fundamental free market argument, so here it is...>>>>
From what do you make this claim? Numerous studies have shown that this is not the case. Put up or shut up as they say.
....If I'm company X and I want to hire person Y, any gov't interference in that is a violation of the free market. If the gov't does that because person Y's country violates human rights, that may be a good enough reason to violate the open market, but it still violates the market. To say "Let's have the free market but limit it to Americans doesn't shake out."....
When everyones wages across the world are the same that may be a nice argument but the government was created to keep citizens safe and prosperous - not multinational organizations.
....Right now the US says that 65,000 smart people who have jobs waiting for them can enter the country. Why it is good to have 65k smart people, but not 150k is beyond me.....
And those 65K non-voting, non-citizens will displace 65K American workers, most of whom will have to train their 'smart' replacements before being let go to go on welfare or be forced into a lower paying profession.
....American schools don't put out enough engineers or scientists. They haven't for a while, so companies look at talent that was trained in America but born elsewhere. And you know something -- if those visa recipients go back to their country or origin, they are some of our best ambassadors.....
Complete bull-shit. We have more than enough engineers and scientists but not at the 3rd world wages companies want to pay. Problem is with the H-1B and other visas you can pretty much rest assured that those recipients will never go back to India or China.
....The arguments against H1b visas are just as greedy as the arguments for them. On the one hand, you say companies are greedy because they want the maximum profit - aren't you arguing for the maximum wage for yourself? Of course in the world of populist politics, that doesn't really matter....
In the real world that I live in - you know the one that counts people as being important instead of corporate profits - the reality is that the middle class is going away and the working poor aren't even working anymore.
Sorry to burst your bubble but if American citizens trying to fight for their rights to stay alive in this country - is being greedy you are insane. The folks who have posted on this blog are seriously concerned about the state of America and where this country and it's whored out politicians are taking us.
Sorry if you don't share the concern for the well-being of this country and it's once strong middle class.
----American Patriot said...
Some of the comments on this thread perfectly illustrate the socialist inclinations of the posters. One want me to "swing from a rope" always a favorite of KGB and other assorted socialist thugs. Another warns of a coming "social revolution" another favorite of those who want to use physical force against market forces. Still another bemoans that there is no party caring "about us poor old Americans" - one of the staples of socialist agitators wanting the government to intervene whenever they lose in the marketplace. Yet another decries NAFTA - socialists have never been fond of free trade.
The anti-immigrationists here apparently do not want to realize that globalization is going to descend on them whether they like it or not (and that whether we have no immigration, or limited immigration or unlimited immigration is NOT going to make any difference to their salaries in the long run). It is sad to see so many people in America accept socialist fallacies - America is the land of the free. All those who want socialist utopias should be deported! ----
Perhaps if you had more than a few working brain cells you would begin to put two and two together and realize the level of anger the citizens of our country have on this issue.
Call us socialists/KGB/whatever. Too bad you can't debate the issues being raised here and simply resort to name calling.
Not too long ago - you know, for the 200 years or so we had tariffs and actually regulated trade we were the most powerful country in the world. Times have changed for the worse - don't you think?
Or perhaps you are a corporate whore who thinks that leaving the country in bad shape so you could earn an extra couple of points on your investment is a good thing.
If you care to comment again please don't call us names but try to address the isssues. Globalism can be defeated and I have a feeling you are beginning to have a little fear that the globalist ideas for corporate world domination may not win out.
You can fool some of the people some of the time and all of the people some of the time but not all of the people all of the time.
Times are changing my friend.
American Patriot you are one confused individual. It's the liberals who want to flood our country with foreigners and it always has been since the 1960's when the immigration laws were changed.
Flooding the country with foreigners to create balkinazation is the socialist agenda. In fact, if you will do a little research on the United Nations social agenda you will find that you are acting in the capacity of a useful idiot for them.
You are deluding only yourself by using the handle 'American Patriot'. But that fits with the marxist strategies of using positivism to promote a negative.
You are not an American Patriot. You are an American traitor working for the multinational corporations that are also traitors to this nation.
What I for one really want to hear from is an HONEST free trader, market liberal, who doesn't resort to lies like false claims of shortages or invidious insinuations of racial inferiority. Moreover, it must also be admitted that allowing non-immigrant or guestworker status---indentured servitude---creates an imperfect market: in essence is a subsidy._______________________________________________________________
Shortages don't uniquely motivate or underpin the distinctive idea of free trade in labor: most protectionists would agree to having guestworkers in the presence of an actual one._______________________________________________________________
Some people have been arguing that the problem with guestworkers is that they often eventually become permanent: when they do they enlarge and dilute the labor pool for sure, but their most serious impact---where they most strongly distort the labor market---is while they are guestworkers._______________________________________________________________
Also note bene that H1bs who on the other hand `go back,' often become the core employees of foreign design centers and manufacturing operations: a lot of offshoring wouldn't work without them.
Thank you Jim Webb for your opposition to the H1B program. I am a programmer who lost his job to a person on an H1B visa. My skills are excellent. I programm Intranet and Internet applications using the latest .Net technology. Nobody wants to hire me. Yet businesses claim there is a shortage of high tech workers.
The only truth is the there is a shortage of cheap labor in the US. Business wants cheap labor. The H1B program should be abolished.
Jim Webb is so right on the economic immigration issue.
Either Allen is really naive, or his statement is just "party- line."
Somewhere along the way, Corporations declared themselves to be, "Global Citizens."
If the Global Citizens want open borders, how about opening up their computer systems up to us old programmers and letting us run a bunch of servers and services on their infrastructure?
Weaver
Anonymous 11:02am,
Your post that Allen is anti-illegal-immigration is unfounded.
Here is the vote count:
http://www.dailykos.com/story/2006/6/22/11050/3800
"All those who want socialist utopias should be deported! ----"
Deport how? These people who are against the H-1B visas are US citizens. They can't be deported.
Deport where? The US takes in more "immigrants" than all the rest of the world combined. Believe it or not, very few countries take in many immigrants and are very choosy about which ones they do take. It may be a novel concept to American Patriot but sovereign nations have the right to determine who enters their borders, for what reason, how long they stay, and under what conditions.
----------
At 8:37 PM, eyeswideoopen said...
American Patriot you are one confused individual. It's the liberals who want to flood our country with foreigners and it always has been since the 1960's when the immigration laws were changed.
Flooding the country with foreigners to create balkinazation is the socialist agenda. In fact, if you will do a little research on the United Nations social agenda you will find that you are acting in the capacity of a useful idiot for them.
-----------
One of the problems that I see is that the left hates Americans so much they want to import everyone from elsewhere and the right just wants to please big business so everyone in between the ultra-left American haters and the righty corporate lovers should put their head between their legs and kiss their a** goodbye (that's all the middle and lower class in this country).
In reality it's a little more complex because both the left and right are pawns/whores of the corporate titans who run the world right now. I think that some of left forgot that they were supposed to care about people in this country and the others just don't care about anything as long as their campaign coffers keep getting filled by the transnational corps.
---------------------
At 9:10 AM, Anonymous said...
"All those who want socialist utopias should be deported! ----"
Deport how? These people who are against the H-1B visas are US citizens. They can't be deported.
Deport where? The US takes in more "immigrants" than all the rest of the world combined. Believe it or not, very few countries take in many immigrants and are very choosy about which ones they do take. It may be a novel concept to American Patriot but sovereign nations have the right to determine who enters their borders, for what reason, how long they stay, and under what conditions.
---------------------
One of the biggest problems is that we are no longer a soverign nation. The congress ceded it to the WTO with the NAFTA agreement and all the other so called 'free-trade' agreements since.
The Indian government has already said that if we cut the number of H-1B's any further they will take the matter to the WTO as we would be restricting the movement of natural persons.
I am definitely not a socialist but an independent entrepreneur software engineer, not a member of either party.
I am a patriot first and foremost, blood and soil for 14 generations. For that reason, I despise the those who have sold
us out.
The line in the sand is drawn and the betrayes of this nation need to learn fast.
No, East Indians cannot be deported. But what about service to the nation? The greater good? How many East Indians now serve in Iraq? How many fireman? Police?
EMTs?
If the question seems unfair, consider that every other ethnic group has served in some kind of public service. The oligarchy like Sen. Allen and others do not mind the creation of elite, not required to serve their time or pay for liberty with blood.
So is it time again. as Jefferson demanded, for another generation to pay
for liberty again with blood?
"The Indian government has already said that if we cut the number of H-1B's any further they will take the matter to the WTO as we would be restricting the movement of natural persons."
And how many similarly situated workers does India allow in?
------------
At 8:05 PM, Anonymous said...
"The Indian government has already said that if we cut the number of H-1B's any further they will take the matter to the WTO as we would be restricting the movement of natural persons."
And how many similarly situated workers does India allow in?
------------
I believe the answer is none. They have laws preventing foreigners from entering their country to take a precious resource (jobs) from their citizens.
Seems to me we should emulate them.
I see the concentrated effort effort to flood this blog with comments from some, yet unnamed, organization is continuing.
Please talk to a business owner in Northern Virginia about tech workers. Please. Not "greedy corporate giants", but the people who have put up their personal money to invest in a company and are just trying to make a living. Here's what they'll tell you...
1. I don't have enough qualified computer engineers (the self-described "programming genius" from earlier in the thread notwithstanding).
2. The people I do have work long hours and if they work any more hours they'll be burnt out, but I can't meet the demands of my customers without even more productivity.
3. The people from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) are the most well-trained engineers in the world.
4. Jim Webb is a classic protectionist in the way Pat Buchannan is. If you try and close America off at the borders and think the competitive world should end there, you're in trouble. (I am prepared for the onslaught of comments on that point, but please spare me the "I'm just trying to protect my job and the jobs of hard working Americans. I'm not trying to cut us off at the borders". That's baloney and those positions are one in the same.
Will the 60 or so previous commentors please say what e-mail distribution list they got this link from? It's clear this is part of an organized effort there are some smoke and mirrors going on here.
Please abolish the H-1B and L-1 visa programs. I've spent countless years preparing for a career that has now been utterly destroyed. I could actually earn more as a janitor and there would be far greater job security.
------------
At 9:28 PM, Anonymous said...
1. I don't have enough qualified computer engineers (the self-described "programming genius" from earlier in the thread notwithstanding).
>>> You mean you can't find enough 'qualified' folks willing to work for 50% the rate you have to pay Americans.
2. The people I do have work long hours and if they work any more hours they'll be burnt out, but I can't meet the demands of my customers without even more productivity.
>>>> Exactly what company and how many programmers do you have working for you? Are you demanding 'more productivity' as in the slave-like conditions you can keep your indentured servants, I mean H-1B visa folks? Sorry, American's don't like slavery anymore, won't do it.
3. The people from IIT (Indian Institute of Technology) are the most well-trained engineers in the world.
>>>> As someone who got a Masters at Harvard and taught at MIT and has worked with the best and brightest of IIT - you are full of sh** and incredibly insulting to hard working American engineers. Shame, shame, shame on you. That one line shows that you are a know-nothing corporate shill.
The best engineers in the world come from American schools. Now if you are referring to the IIT folks who you can make work 15 hours/day 6-7 days a week because they need you to sponsor their visa (slaves) then you are right - American's won't work under those conditions but IMO that makes Americans a bit brighter than their IIT counterparts.
4. Jim Webb is a classic protectionist in the way Pat Buchannan is. If you try and close America off at the borders and think the competitive world should end there, you're in trouble. (I am prepared for the onslaught of comments on that point, but please spare me the "I'm just trying to protect my job and the jobs of hard working Americans. I'm not trying to cut us off at the borders". That's baloney and those positions are one in the same.
>>>> For over 200 years American got by quite nicely by being 'protectionist' and using tariffs to keep key industries in the country. We created a vibrant middle class and the strongest most prosperous country on the face of the earth. Since the 70's when we began letting in 2 million or so people a year, wages have been stagnant and the middle class has been shrinking. What could be had (house in the suburbs) on a single wage in the 50's and 60's now requires 2+ incomes. Can't go on much longer as we are very close to the tipping point. As others have pointed out when things finally tip it's not going to be pretty.
Will the 60 or so previous commentors please say what e-mail distribution list they got this link from? It's clear this is part of an organized effort there are some smoke and mirrors going on here.
>>>> The only smoke and mirrors is coming from the 1 or 2 percent of the people posting here that are trying desperately to cling to the notion that bringing unlimited numbers of workers into this country is good for America.
Okay, okay - so you didn't say unlimited. But if 2 million a year is okay, why not 4 or 5 million? At some point even the most die hard transnational windbags are going to say it's too much. And be honest with yourself and ask the question, go ahead...why is 5 or 10 million new cheap workers a year too much?
The answer is painfully obvious - there won't be any American left to earn a decent wage and that will cause a depression the like of which we have never seen because if everyone is working at Wal-mart 20 hours a week making $5.15 an hour, they won't have enough money to be good little consumers.
Work with me and extrapolate down a little. If 4-5 million new cheap worker immigrants a year is too much, what are the 2 million a year that we are currently letting in doing to the economy and the people in this country?
The answer can be gleaned by reading the multitude of responded here. If we still have a job, our wages are either in free-fall or if we are lucky - stagnant and we can barely afford food and shelter anymore. Keep it up much longer and there won't be any middle class left to buy goods to keep the economic engines of China going.
And boy what a deal our free trade agreements with China have brought this country. We're expanding their economy while contracting ours. And as they expand they need more resources and oil prices rise to record levels. If you are a transnational company you are doing great these days. If you are a worker bee - or used to be a worker bee, things aren't as rosy.
Bang the free trade drums and lie all you want about the 'shortage' of engineers in the US. Keep disparaging Americans and their work ethic to try and support your baseless claims. I wouldn't be surprised to hear one of you free trade whores spout off that computer engineering is just another one of those jobs that Americans won't do.
What we won't do, you noxious wind-bag, is work for 3rd world wages. What we won't do anymore is put up with the lies of the transnational entities and those politicians who whore themselves out and sell out America and Americans for campaign contributions.
You and they are all traitors and you should look at yourself in the morning and pray that those who in the past came after your kind with pitchforks - don't do it again when Americans wake up and finally take back their country from the ultra-wealthy special interests.
If you have the guts or intelligence to try and respond - please don't call hard working Americans stupid or lazy again and let everyone know why unlimited (or you pick a number) of cheaper worker immigrants a year is going to help the country and it's citizens. Note that I didn't say benefit transnational corporations --> explain to everyone how putting the entire American middle class out of work is a good thing for the country.
--------------------
Amen to that! We've been taking it on the chin too long and you hit the nail right on the head. We have to revoke the WTO and all these damn free trade agreements that are nothing more than wealth transfers from the working poor and middle class in this country to the rich.
Another poster said it really good by pointing out that studies show about 22K new IT jobs each year but currently 65K H-1B's are allowed in to take those jobs. That doesn't even count the other visas used (illegally) like the L-1. When they were letting in 195K per year what do you think happened to the 173K-250,000 Americans who were displaced each year by lower cost labor from overseas?
They are underemployed if they haven't killed themselves. The country is bringing in less if any taxes on them and more likely is having to shell out more in social services. The visa programs are nothing more that the rich finding another way to rob the middle class and push us down into poverty.
No, I am not resorting to name calling - I am simply calling a spade a spade. The idea that jobs in American corporations belong to American citizens is a socialist idea - not a capitalist one. This idea is a profoundly unAmerican one. One of the posters on this thread says that flooding the country with immigrants leads to balkanization - this is a Nazi argument, and a socialist one (remember the Nazis were socialists too?). And yes, the socialist liberals are against importation of labor, they just want to import no end of refugees to bloat their welfare state. This thread is about importing labor, which is what H1B is. Predictably, the liberals are against it - as are other socialists on this thread.
Trying to stop globalism is trying to change the tides - and will not be successful. One of the side effects of globalism is that it creates its malcontents - al Qaeda is one - the anti-immigrationists in every country are another.
Since socialism is profoundly unAmerican, I propose that all who believe in it be deported forthwith to the socialist utopia of their choice - they can be dropped by parachute over any country they like. If there are problems with this, they can all be sent to Antarctica.
Once again, almost every poster on this thread has removed himself/herself from any right to be American by espousing socialist ideas - deport them!
(It has taken me a day to try to get this posted - provided I suceed now?! So, in the event I do not post here again, my silence should not be interpreted as consent. Also, I have not been able to read the last dozen messages before composing this email, so there may be something there too, that I might disagree with.)
At 12:51 PM, American Patriot 2 said...
No, I am not resorting to name calling - I am simply calling a spade a spade. The idea that jobs in American corporations belong to American citizens is a socialist idea - not a capitalist one. This idea is a profoundly unAmerican one. One of the posters on this thread says that flooding the country with immigrants leads to balkanization - this is a Nazi argument, and a socialist one (remember the Nazis were socialists too?). And yes, the socialist liberals are against importation of labor, they just want to import no end of refugees to bloat their welfare state. This thread is about importing labor, which is what H1B is. Predictably, the liberals are against it - as are other socialists on this thread.
>>>>>
Ha ha, you are a funny person. Have you tried stand-up-comedy? So I guess the founding fathers of this nation who instituted tariffs and protected American jobs on American soil were all socialists and un-American. Do you have the intellectual capacity to see how invalid your arguments are?
Webb is one of only a few 'liberals' who are against the H-1B program because he gets that it is taking jobs from Americans and is not good for the country. The rest of the liberals/democrats are virtually united in their SUPPORT for unrestricted immigration. Only a few on the republican side (Tancredo is the best) see what our flawed immigration policy is doing and has the balls to stand up to the establishment. When the far right and the far left get together on something it's not going to be good for the majority of Americans who have to work for a living.
<<<<<
Trying to stop globalism is trying to change the tides - and will not be successful. One of the side effects of globalism is that it creates its malcontents - al Qaeda is one - the anti-immigrationists in every country are another.
>>>>>
When you destroy people's jobs and livelyhoods while enriching yourselves - yes there will be some people who disagree. Attempting to align those who disagree with American trade and immigration policy with mass murderers is beyond reproach and I would hope you have the ability to apologize for such an outrageous statement.
That's so far over the top that you must have spit out a few teeth trying to say/write it. I am an American Patriot and you are a traitor to the principals our founding fathers fought and died for. Calling those who are fighting for the rights of Americans over multinational corporations who care for nobody - Nazi's and al Qeuda is insane and I don't think you will find any rational human being on this planet who will agree with you (discounting other corporate shills such as yourself)
<<<<<<
Since socialism is profoundly unAmerican, I propose that all who believe in it be deported forthwith to the socialist utopia of their choice - they can be dropped by parachute over any country they like. If there are problems with this, they can all be sent to Antarctica.
Once again, almost every poster on this thread has removed himself/herself from any right to be American by espousing socialist ideas - deport them!
<<<<<<
I am an American and we still have free speech so good luck in deporting me. Your lack of understanding of one of the most basic concepts of the American justice system makes me wonder where you hail from.
>>>>>>
(It has taken me a day to try to get this posted - provided I suceed now?! So, in the event I do not post here again, my silence should not be interpreted as consent. Also, I have not been able to read the last dozen messages before composing this email, so there may be something there too, that I might disagree with.)
>>>>>>
What's wrong, your 300 baud modem from India/China not working very well today? You are no more an American than you are an American Patriot.
You are some 3rd world American wannabe or a corporate shill from outside the country looking to throw up dirt and try to confuse people by likening them to Nazi's and other mass murderers. You are nuts and should get some professional help.
<<<<<<
--->>>>So, in the event I do not post here again, my silence should not be interpreted as consent. Also, I have not been able to read the last dozen messages before composing this email, so there may be something there too, that I might disagree with.)
You sound like a 14 year old in between classes. This is an open forum and we don't need your consent to disagree - who do you think you are?
Perhaps if you read the other messages you wouldn't post such inflammatory and senseless notes as your last one.
Dissent does not = terrorism and Americans are too bright to fall for that anymore. Try some other fear mongering trick because that dog won't hunt no mo.
I'm still amused at the Harvard Masters grad who can't go through a post on a blog without having it be curse-laden and inflamatory. Gets his talking points from Lou Dobbs and his vocabulary from behind the barn.
I understand businesses have a motivation to maximize profit. And I understand that a big chunk of their costs go to wages. But it would take one whale of a conspiracy for the nearly universal outcry - across all sectors - of a shortage of well-qualified tech workers. Every notable and less notable business owner agrees. Every education policy wonk says the US is behind in math and science.
I understand that I am speaking in absolutes and debate coaches would shrill but that's the continuous message.
There are 65,000 H1B visas issued to smart kids who graduate from American colleges, have jobs waiting for them and will pay American taxes and buy American goods while they are here. When that number was 195,000 in the 90's there weren't the protectionist claims we are hearing now.
I'm still waiting to see what union or organization is the ultimate source behind all these messages. No answer to that as of yet. Smoke and mirrors continue.
For anyone who buys into the bogus claim that we need H-1B's or that there is a labor shortage please read this:
http://www.counterpunch.org/roberts09302006.html
---------------
Anonymous said...
I'm still amused at the Harvard Masters grad who can't go through a post on a blog without having it be curse-laden and inflamatory. Gets his talking points from Lou Dobbs and his vocabulary from behind the barn.
>>>>
Instead of disparaging me - try and dispute what I say. You know you can't and that must really get you upset. What's wrong, worried that your transnational mutual funds might go down a few points? Worried that the truths that Lou Dobbs dares speak are going to affect your bottom line?
<<<<<
I understand businesses have a motivation to maximize profit. And I understand that a big chunk of their costs go to wages. But it would take one whale of a conspiracy for the nearly universal outcry - across all sectors - of a shortage of well-qualified tech workers. Every notable and less notable business owner agrees. Every education policy wonk says the US is behind in math and science.
<<<<<
What are you talking about? There is no shortage and their never has been. The only ones who claim so are those who want to replace Americans with cheaper labor. The good 'ol boys in this country who can't move their entire operations overseas figure out another way to beat down Americans - import cheap labor to replace Americans with.
Perhaps the policy wonks you listen to says the US is behind in math and science. What metrics are you using? The number of college grads in computer science? Well bub, that number had declined dramatically but it's not an indication of American's being behind - it shows that our children are smart to see that IT, in an American ruled by transnationals and staffed with 3rd world labor, is a no-win proposition and they are moving to other careers. Humm, perhaps American students are smarter than corporate shills and shortage shouters are making them out to be.
>>>>>>
I understand that I am speaking in absolutes and debate coaches would shrill but that's the continuous message.
There are 65,000 H1B visas issued to smart kids who graduate from American colleges, have jobs waiting for them and will pay American taxes and buy American goods while they are here. When that number was 195,000 in the 90's there weren't the protectionist claims we are hearing now.
>>>>>>
I love debating folks who don't have their facts straight. Foreign students are here on F-1 (student) visas. H-1B's are imported from overseas to take American jobs.
One of the more obnoxious items in the last attempt at an across the board immigration increase was to allow UNLIMITED numbers of graduating F-1 visa holders to stay and take jobs instead of having them return to their host country and get in line for an employment visa (H-1B, L-1 etc). That didn't make it.
Each one of those 65,000 current (oops the ol INS goofed and actually gave out 85,000 a couple years back - bypassing the law and supposed limits) H-1B holders joins approximately 500,000 other H-1B holders in the US and an unknown number of L-1 visa holders.
Each one takes the job of an American and if you think a dozen or so Indians or Chinese living in a single apartment offers the same economic 'benefit' to America as an equal number of citizens who won't live in slave-like conditions - you need some professional help as well.
And for the record - when the H-1B visa went to 195,000 there were a lot of us complaining. But mainstream media and their corporate sponsors did not listen at the time.
Now as others have pointed out we are at the tipping point and the plight of millions of Americans can no longer be ignored. So many millions of Americans who have seen their job insourced/outsourced/just plain taken away are pissed off and are taking action.
>>>>>>
I'm still waiting to see what union or organization is the ultimate source behind all these messages. No answer to that as of yet. Smoke and mirrors continue.
<<<<<<
I wish IT workers had a union. You would see the end of H-1B's in a months time. Too bad you refuse to see the truth, but you and your kind will soon as the times they are a changin.
>>>>>>
--------------------------
Sen. Allen's sponsorship of the SKIL bill is quite telling. It will have a devastating impact on science and technology in this country. He talks about how important it is to educate our children and that we need to be more competitive. While all that talking is going on, the SKILL bill, if implemented, will seriously demotivate youngsters from going into these very fields. The reasoning he is espousing sounds like this: if you want to get people into science and technology, the best thing is to squash that job market.
Jim Webb, on the other hand, makes some sense. At least he has spent some time thinking about the long-term effects of immigration, rather than spouting out the industry line.
-----
At 3:22 PM, Anonymous said...
But it would take one whale of a conspiracy for the nearly universal outcry - across all sectors - of a shortage of well-qualified tech workers. Every notable and less notable business owner agrees.
-----
You are either incredibly naive, just plain stupid or a corporate plant. The people with money and access to media have been shouting about a 'shortage' of IT workers for years in order to increase H-1B and other visas while concurrently laying off Americans who used to do the work.
If there is such a shortage why have hundreds of thousands of IT workers been displaced by foreign visa holders who are paid lower salaries?
Just a little bit of honesty here would be good. You know full well that the push to increase visas is nothing more than a shameless attempt to throw more Americans out of work to save a few dollars in labor costs.
"If there is such a shortage why have hundreds of thousands of IT workers been displaced by foreign visa holders who are paid lower salaries?"
Not only displaced but often made to train their replacements! I worked over 35 years in the IT industry and am now retired. I was a manager during my last years. This I know for certain. Two jobs in tech work that you don't give to dummies or to people who don't know what they are doing are employee training and documentation. You don't want people who don't know what they are doing passing their mistaken or inaccurate ideas or bad work habits on to others or enshrining them in print. Yet these are the 2 tasks the US tech workers are often forced to do before being replaced by cheap foreign workers.
Corporate greed is the issue here - there is no tech shortage but there may well be shortly as the baby boomers get forced out of their tech jobs and the new generations see what the future holds and refuse to enter the field.
WSJ had an article last year in which "tech execs" were lamenting that they couldn't talk their children into entering tech, science and engineering fields. Why not? The kids were pretty frank - those jobs were in danger of being taken over by foreign labor either abroad or here in the US. If the kids of "tech execs" who can pay for their educations and pull a few strings to get them employed afterward are afraid to enter the field, how can we expect middle class students with big student loans and no connections to take the chance?
When manufacturing jobs started disappearing, we were told that we should prepare for technological jobs. Now they are disappearing.
What are US workers supposed to do? All go down to the parking lot and shoot themselves in the head so that businesses and a handful of rich people can continue to prosper? I don't think so....
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At 9:58 AM, Anonymous said...
What are US workers supposed to do? All go down to the parking lot and shoot themselves in the head so that businesses and a handful of rich people can continue to prosper? I don't think so....
------------------
The so-called American Patriot here would probably like that - save money on deporting those of us who dare question the status quo that is destroying America.
Here's what I love about the protectionist argument....If you're successful enough to not let anymore smart engineers work here via the H1 B visa program, eventually companies will just move more of their shops overseas.
Look at what France did...they made it so hard to fire people that companies don't hire within France the way they used do, prefering to hire outside the borders.
--------------------
At 10:02 PM, Anonymous said...
Here's what I love about the protectionist argument....If you're successful enough to not let anymore smart engineers work here via the H1 B visa program, eventually companies will just move more of their shops overseas.
Look at what France did...they made it so hard to fire people that companies don't hire within France the way they used do, prefering to hire outside the borders.
--------------------
You mean the argument that we return sovereign control of our nation to it's elected officials instead of the WTO? For about 200 years we dealt with issues like that with tariffs.
30 years ago, if a company wanted to axe all its American workers and move to China...good luck to them and good luck trying to sell good or services back into the US. It wasn't allowed. Effective tariffs and trade agreements PROTECTED AMERICANS from this sort of corporate stupidity and created a vibrant middle class.
Now the transnationals have co-opted the work protectionism to be a bad thing. Protectionist trade policies made America the most prosperous nation on earth. Since we've had free trade our country has sent trillions of dollars of its wealth and 10's of millions of it middle class jobs overseas.
Yes it can be stopped and the transnational moves can be countered. Want to move your call center overseas? How about a $50 a call tax? Want to move your software development to India or China? No problem, just figure out a way to pay that $100 a unit tariff and remain competitive with American companies.
This isn't rocket science folks and it served our nation well for about 200 years. Of course those examples aren't allowed by the WTO but the 'free trade' agreements can be torn up and we can start new.
It won't happen this year or the next but the transnational companies have pushed too far and it's time for the people to push back and fight for our rights as Americans.
As to your inane note that companies will just move their operations overseas - go ahead. But if they won't be allowed to sell into the US market anymore, how many will decide to go overseas? And if they aren't allowed to bring H-1B's into the country to be trained in how to do things by American workers those companies will not be able to then fire the Americans and move overseas.
What's sad is that the system of tariffs and industry by industry trade agreements worked so well and made America the envy of the world. But I guess there were just too many middle class folks for the rich to deal with in America - best to push them all down into poverty so we can build a 2nd pool next to the west-end tennis court.
I continue to have problems posting here (and I am on the East Coast with a fast DSL connection, not overseas), so I hope this message makes it thru. Since other folks seem to have no trouble posting, it may be that my computer (its a new one) needs some debugging.
Protectionism hurts consumers before it hurts producers. What everyone on this thread seems to be forgetting is that what matters is not absolute wages, but relative wages. If your wage falls by half, but all the goods/services that you consume also fall by half, you are no worse off or better off than before. In other words, the correct number to use to see the effect of protectionism and tarriffs is real wages, not nominal wages. Real wages have continued to increase dramatically in the last half century, in a fashion not seen in the official statistics. For example, in the official CPI calculations, a TV purchased by someone in the US today vs a few decades back is measured only dollar for dollar, not by the ratio of feature/dollar to feature/dollar. In other words, the dramatic quality difference in modern products as compared with the generation-ago counterparts is not captured in wage stats. In other words, the average person today in the US is fabulously richer than half a generation ago. Free trade is a big part of that happening. If we dont have free trade going forward, our children will not be richer than us. Protectionism for ANY part of the economy (middle class wage earners for example) will hurt ALL the economy.
Globalism in an era of IP communications across the globe, would be impossible to enforce, particularly for software, whose bits and bytes can easily flow into America without impediment of tarriffs. That is why I said that fighting globalism is like fighting the tides - and will be about as successful. It is painful for the American middle class to wake up and realize that foreign competition does put them at a disadvantage, and there is not much they can do about it. The American middle class may not like it, but we are going to have less of a middle class and more of both the rich and poor classes (I am among the American middle class). Learning the truth will not stop it from hurting, but it beats the alternative.
The key thing for this thread, though, is that jobs belong to employers, not to workers. The idea that American employers can be forced by American workers is emphatically a socialist one, hence my labelling of the anti-immigrationists on this thread as socialist, and deeply unAmerican, anti-patriotic, anti-Jeffersonian traitors.
If you think that US citizens cannot be deported (simply because of the accident of your birth here) while the lives of immigrants around you continue to be destroyed by deportation and the threat thereof, think again. I say that you WILL be deported, in the fullness of time. And the founding fathers in heaven look down on what I write here and smile at me. They deported the redcoats, and it seems that time has come again.
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At 9:00 AM, American Patriot said...
<<<<<<
tremendous amount of drivel ;-)
>>>>>>
Protectionism hurts consumers before it hurts producers. What everyone on this thread seems to be forgetting is that what matters is not absolute wages, but relative wages. If your wage falls by half, but all the goods/services that you consume also fall by half, you are no worse off or better off than before. In other words, the correct number to use to see the effect of protectionism and tarriffs is real wages, not nominal wages. Real wages have continued to increase dramatically in the last half century, in a fashion not seen in the official statistics. For example, in the official CPI calculations, a TV purchased by someone in the US today vs a few decades back is measured only dollar for dollar, not by the ratio of feature/dollar to feature/dollar. In other words, the dramatic quality difference in modern products as compared with the generation-ago counterparts is not captured in wage stats. In other words, the average person today in the US is fabulously richer than half a generation ago. Free trade is a big part of that happening. If we dont have free trade going forward, our children will not be richer than us. Protectionism for ANY part of the economy (middle class wage earners for example) will hurt ALL the economy.
<<<<
It's interesting and telling that you talk about the last half century but why stop there? We're also much better off now than we were 500 or a thousand years ago. The fact is that real wages haven't ticked up in relation to inflation much in the past 10 years. In the first part of the last century things were great for workers. But the last 10-15 years or so has seen the decimation of unions which are in large part responsible for the increase in wages enjoyed the bulk of the 1900's. Strangely, or not so strangely this has been the same period in which a huge influx of foreign workers into this country has occured. And at the same time our lack or 'protectionist' policies by ceeding control to the WTO has resulted in entire industries (and their jobs) moving first to Mexico and then to China.
So called 'free-trade' has not helped the middle-class much aside from making them live on less while the rich get richer. The gap between the rich and the poor/middle class has never been greater in our nations history. Again it just must be a strange coincidence that this has happened while 'free-trade' agreements have allowed the wholesale slaughter of the American middle class.
>>>>
Globalism in an era of IP communications across the globe, would be impossible to enforce, particularly for software, whose bits and bytes can easily flow into America without impediment of tarriffs. That is why I said that fighting globalism is like fighting the tides - and will be about as successful. It is painful for the American middle class to wake up and realize that foreign competition does put them at a disadvantage, and there is not much they can do about it. The American middle class may not like it, but we are going to have less of a middle class and more of both the rich and poor classes (I am among the American middle class). Learning the truth will not stop it from hurting, but it beats the alternative.
<<<<<<
If you knew anything about IT or IP traffic you would know that you can effectively limit access from a region so 'enforcement' of tariffs can easily be instituted again. Taking a fatalistic approach to globalism is moronic.
It's interesting that on one hand (first paragraph) you talk about how globalism is helping Americans become even more prosperous but just now you admit that foreign comeptition puts Americans at a disadvantage. Which is it?
Do you even realize the lies that you spew? You are talking out of both side of your mouth at the same time and it's why people are starting to wake up and realize that you free-traders are all full of crap!
>>>>>>>
The key thing for this thread, though, is that jobs belong to employers, not to workers. The idea that American employers can be forced by American workers is emphatically a socialist one, hence my labelling of the anti-immigrationists on this thread as socialist, and deeply unAmerican, anti-patriotic, anti-Jeffersonian traitors.
<<<<<<<<
We agree on something. But realize that employers have to follow government regulations. I know free-traders such as yourself probably want to see the minimum wage and other minor labor protections eliminated but companies have to follow the law. And if the law changes the companies will have to adapt to changing conditions. Those who can't will perish and new ones will spring up in their place. That my friend is called capitalism - not socialism and it is profoundly American.
What is un-American, un-patriotic and traitorous is your free-trade lies and previous labeling of anyone who doesn't agree with your transnational corporate socialist agenda as being terrorists. Your previous posts were never pulled for their insane content and I see you haven't apologized yet. Shame on you. As has been pointed out before - that dirty trick doesn't work anymore as folks have seen it too many times and know that it's just another lie from someone who can't debate the issues anymore because they have nothing but lies on their side.
>>>>>>>>
If you think that US citizens cannot be deported (simply because of the accident of your birth here) while the lives of immigrants around you continue to be destroyed by deportation and the threat thereof, think again. I say that you WILL be deported, in the fullness of time. And the founding fathers in heaven look down on what I write here and smile at me. They deported the redcoats, and it seems that time has come again.
<<<<<<<<
Again, are you insane/stupid/a corporate toadie or all of the above? In one sentance you talk about the founding fathers looking down on you with a smile while trashing everything the founding fathers worked for.
In the fullness of time perhaps you will grow a brain and realize that you can't form an argument and have done nothing to push the transnational globalist agenda.
If you are the best the globalists can come up with then the fight to return sovereign control back to American will be much easier than I thought.
Your corporate handlers should find someone else who can spew better lies because nobody is buying into your line of garbage.
>>>>>>>>>>
"while the lives of immigrants around you continue to be destroyed by deportation and the threat thereof"
The only "immigrants" being threatened by deportation are illegal aliens. Legal immigrants are not in any danger; but, yes, it is true that illegal aliens have just about worn out their welcome with the citizens of the USA, who have been very patient for a loooong time.
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At 12:50 PM, Anonymous said...
"while the lives of immigrants around you continue to be destroyed by deportation and the threat thereof"
The only "immigrants" being threatened by deportation are illegal aliens. Legal immigrants are not in any danger; but, yes, it is true that illegal aliens have just about worn out their welcome with the citizens of the USA, who have been very patient for a loooong time.
------------
I missed that in good ol "American Patriot's" last disgusting message.
So to "American Patriot" if you are an American who objects to the globalist movement you should and will be deported.
But if you are an illegal alien or an H-1B who comes into the country taking jobs from the working poor and middle class - he laments THEIR lives being destroyed by deportation.
Anyone know the name/number of a good shrink on the East Coast (probably of India)? American Patriot really needs some help.
Patriot Guy - let me get this straight. Free trade has been responsible for making us all richer than we were 50 years ago?!?
But with globalization we're all going to have to learn to love competing salary wise with 3rd world labor costs and you admit that the rich are going to get richer and the middle class and poor will get poorer.
I don't like the kool-aide you are selling buddy. I agree with the other anonymous guy that said you are speaking out of both sides of your mouth. You can't have it both ways. Either free trade is making us all more wealthy or it's destroying the middle class.
I tend to think it's the later since I haven't gotten a raise in over 2 years. I don't have a Harvard degree but I'm a very good programmer and with all the layoffs and outsourcing I am glad to still have a job.
Expanding H-1B visas is insane. It's imposed suicide on the middle class by the rich. Damn, we should stop all visas and give the middle class a chance to recover.
Allen's 'skill-bill' will only hurt American workers more than they already are hurting and I'm going to support Webb because it looks like he sees what a sham these immigration visas are and how they hurt us citizens.
The choice between Webb and Allen is very straightforward.
Choice #1 Allen
A corporate toadie who supports H-1B. Allen co-sponsored the Skil Bill – legislation that will allow large increases in the number of employment based H-1B and green card visas, and will create an unlimited F-4 visa.
Choice #2 Webb
A pro-American patriot who opposes H-1B and the Skil bill.
Conclusion: The choice is so obvious we really need not debate it.
Webb defeated Harris “the Shiller” Miller. My prediction is that Webb will also succeed against Allen and part of his victory will be that so many people affected by H-1B have had enough of Allen's betrayals. To read more about Webb vs. Miller, click this link:
Webb vs Miller
To get the latest news and analysis on H-1B and outsourcing, sign up for the free "Job Destruction Newsletter" by sending an email to this address with "SUBSCRIBE" in the subject heading:
JobDestructionNews@ZaZona.com
You can also find out more about the newsletter by going to the Job Destruction News Archive
"We the People of the United States, in Order to form a more perfect Union,
establish Justice, insure domestic Tranquility, provide for the common
defense, promote the general Welfare, and secure the Blessings of Liberty to
ourselves and our Posterity, do ordain and establish this Constitution for the
United States of America."
Mr. Allen apparently hasn't read these words, could someone pass them along to him.
They are the preamble from an very old apparently obsolete document called the United States Constitution.
Readers may note that the third post on this blog shows:
At 9:58 PM, Dr Gene Nelson said...
This post has been removed by a blog administrator.
According to communications, the reason that this happened was allegedly accidental, but other posts that did not focus on employer advocacy for the controversial H-1B visa program did not suffer this "accident." No other posting mentions Microsoft, either. To me, this action seems like censorship that favors the incumbent, Senator Allen.
This message is moved to an inconspicuous spot about 46 pages later, where few are likely to see it. The author requested that the message be re-posted in the original location, but his request was denied.
Created: 10/29/2006 18:52 PDT
One of the things that Microsoft (and other employer interests) would like you to ignore is that they paid lot of money to people involved in the Abramoff Scandal to expand the controversial H-1B visa program in 1998 and again in 2000.
The H-1B visa program is a "back door" way to dismantle employment civil rights laws like the Age Discrimination Act of 1967. Great news for most employers, bad news for millions of experienced American citizens who have been displaced by this harmful program, which was promoted by Webb's primary opponent Harris Miller, who served as head of ITAA.
Here's a link to a spreadsheet that I created that shows the millions of visas involved.
http://www.zazona.com/shameH1B/Library/BrainSavers/VisaGlut.PDF
See my 2005 article about the corrupt roots in 1976 of the H-1B visa program at:
http://www.thesocialcontract.com/cgi-bin/showarticle.pl? articleID=1313&terms=
See also: http://www.zazona.com/shameH1B/Library/BrainSavers/H-1BVisaUsage_NIH_2003.pdf
For those that want more documentation about the H-1b connection to the Abramoff Scandal, please email me at
c0030180[at]airmail.net
Dr. Gene A. Nelson
Dr. Nelson, thanks for the PDF outlining the Visa glut problem. Do you have any estimates for 2003, 2004 or 2005?
The university use of H-1B visa holders as slaves does not surprise me one bit. I was in IT through the 80's and got burnt out, went back to school and got a bio degree and then and went into a Ph.D. program. Less than half of the folks in the labs I worked in were American. When I finished in 1993 the only jobs that were open were paying about $30K/year and most didn't even offer health insurance.
I ended up going back to IT because I couldn't raise a family on < $500/week. I made it to 2003 before I was replaced with an H-1B (and forced to train them or they wouldn't give me my final paycheck). I'm back in IT but haven't gotten a raise in 2 years and my employer keeps telling all the developers on the staff that nobody (us) is irreplaceable. Pushing 46 now and I know I can't afford to make waves or I'll probably be let go again.
Please keep up the fight and elect sensible representatives who care about US citizens like Mr. Webb.
My resume:
Citizenship: Born in the USA
1989 - 2001: Embedded systems software engineer.
2001 - present: Taxi driver.
Any questions?
Age discrimination is rampant in IT thanks to outsourcing and the importation cheap foreign labor; but it seems that gender discrimination is also on the rise. This from a report from the Programmers' Guild:
"The ITAA found that the percentage of women in the IT workforce dropped from 41 percent in 1996 to 32.4 percent in 2004."
The overwhelming number of IT H-1B's are male - usually young males from basically third-world countries. Not the sort to stay home with a sick child or take parental leave - that's women's work - and free to work long hours and weekends on salary. Businesses are crying shortage of workers to get around laws protecting US workers.
Dr Nelson,
I'm familar with this spread sheet, however, I would like to point out one error... the INS numbers for admissions refers to the number of entries into the country, not to the number of persons holding visas. In other words, if one visa holder enters the country five times during a year, then that counts as five admissions. However, even at the correct numbers, that still adds up to millions, and my estimate for the collective anual salaries drawn by these visa holders is about 70 billion per year. That's 70 billion that will be leaving the country, since the visa holders will spend as little money as possible in the US, and take as much of it home as possible, where the PPP (purchasing power parity) is 5 to 1 for countries like India and Mexico. That's like one of us being able to go to another country and earn a half million a year or more. That's also about 50 billion dollars REMOVED from the US economy PER YEAR... about the cost of the Iraq war.
Economic boom shouters will point to the "record low" unemployment rate and the "record high" Dow. However, the government has redefined unemployment, counting millions of jobless as "not in the work force" and therefore not counted in the figure. The Dow Jones average is only record high as measured in US dollars, however, US dollars have fallen by over 35 percent compared to gold and the Euro. So, by the gold standard, the Dow is really only about $7,500, not over $11,000 as touted by the shouters. That's a 25 year record LOW!
taxi driver
Here's another 'benefit' of free-trade and unlimited visas:
http://www.nytimes.com/2006/11/06/business/06pension.html?em&ex=1162962000&en=edab156dcf498f32&ei=5087%0A
For those who want it summarized - local governments are having a hard time paying their pensions. It seems when entire companies move to China or when a population is overrun with cheap workers the resulting tax base goes down. So local governments can no longer afford to pay their pension obligations.
Now I know that some on the far right want to do away with pensions entirely (along with most government) but think for a minute what those free-trade policies do to the average person in America...
- They see their wages go down if they are lucky enough to still have a job in their field
- They see rampant age and sex discrimination and watch as they get thrown out of work in favor of a younger upper-caste Hindu male
- Their purchasing power goes dramatically down working at Walmart
- Their local taxes go up and/or services are decreased
What part of this is good for workers or the country at large?
So called 'free-trade' is a race to the bottom. For the first time in our nations history our children are likely to inherit a world where they won't and CAN'T do better than their parents.
Abolish the WTO and trash all free trade agreements. Restore control of out country before there is nothing left.
Importing millions of Hindus to take our jobs and exporting factories so that workers in China can increase the wealth of the godless Communist government is the most un-Christian thing I can imagine.
Vote all the free-traders and corporate globalists out of Congress. Vote in people like Webb who understand what importing millions of cheaper workers is doing to our society.
I see the term "immigrants" bandied about, but it needs to be noted that this term is misleadingly used.
An "immigrant" is someone who comes to the US with the intention of becoming an American. That means he intends to live here, raise his family here, and have grandchildren here, all of whom would also be Americans.
We can't say that an immigrant "takes jobs away from Americans" because he would also consume in the US, effectively also creating jobs in the process by increasing demand for goods and services in the US.
The problem, both legal, and illegal, is non-immigrants. H-1B visa holders are largely non-immigrants. Even if they come here hoping to get a green card, very few of them actually do. Also, illegal aliens are mostly non-immigrants.
The reason that non-immigrants are a problem is that they are here to sell their labor, but they are not here to consume. They will spend as little money as possible here, living four to a bedroom, or ten to a trailer, in order to spend as little of their money as possible in the US, while saving as much money as possible to take with them when they leave, as I briefly stated in a previous post.
I think that anyone who thinks that non-immigrants are good for the country don't need to be in the legislature. If they were serious about needing more brainpower in the US, they would be pushing for immigration reform in the form of bringing in more CITIZENS, and not TEMPORARY WORKERS.
US citizens, whether they are immigrants or native born, compete with other Americans on a level playing field because they share the same cost of living, and thus the same overhead for their labor. The disparity in bringing in non-immigrants is that while we are charging salaries aimed at supporting families in the United States, non-immigrants can charge salaries aimed at supporting families in their home country. That's a five to one advantage, mollified only by the requirement that they have to spare the expenses of sharing a single person dwelling with three of their compatriots. Thus, they can afford to undercut Americans by a large margin and still take home a nice nest egg.
Even non-immigrants from countrys with a HIGHER cost of living tend to swarm to the US because those countries also have much higher unemployment. Thus, this policy of non-immigrant labor puts corporate America ahead of the people of the United States, who ultimately must pay the price.
The long term effects of this flawed guest worker policy are already surfacing in the form of lowered salaries, which, in turn, means lower than expected sales of domestic consumer products and services, which results in increased demand for cheap and expliotable foreign labor.
Taxi Driver
No, I am not having it both ways - the truth is that globalization BOTH helps AND hurts. In the short term, globalization hurts, as the comments on this thread show. In the long term, globalization helps, even the sorry posters on this thread will be helped by being able to buy more products for less money (think Walmart).
What is GONE the way of the dodo is the old economy where the socialist proposals favored by almost every poster here could work their destruction on our country and where free-traders like me would simply have to suffer the consequences of living with the anti-immigrationists here. Now, the founding fathers' dreams of liberty are going to bear more freedom fruit in the form of destroying the anti-immigrationists socialists who have deluded themselves into believing that they are American. Ha!
For a visual explanation of the truth in immigration, see: Beware the Brown Peril.
Down with the socialists alienated by free-trade in America. Deport them to the old-world socialist Utopia of their dreams!
-------------------
No, I am not having it both ways - the truth is that globalization BOTH helps AND hurts. In the short term, globalization hurts, as the comments on this thread show. In the long term, globalization helps, even the sorry posters on this thread will be helped by being able to buy more products for less money (think Walmart).
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
American Patriot (not) - I thought you finally went away. Interesting that you haven't responded to any of the questions here but choose to post more drivel.
Thanks for finally admitting that globalization hurts in the short term. Nice of you to open your eyes after having the crap beat out of you and your previous inane comments.
But let's look at the long term. What exactly does that mean? How long? For all the folks in manufacturing that were told to retrain in IT or health care - they are screwed and their lives destroyed due to insourcing and outsourcing. It doesn't matter how cheap that Chinese made DVD player is if you are trying to figure out how to put food on your table and pay your energy bills because you've been laid off of a middle class job that job taken by an H-1B or pushed out of the country.
Corporate America fully intends to remove every 'portable' job - accountants, nurses. All non-service industry jobs will be gone if the globalists have their ways. After training the future H-1B's before we are laid off it looks like we will all then be competing with all the illegals allowed into this country for the service industry jobs... you know - would you like fries with that?
How and when exactly is this globalization concept going to help Americans and our country? The truth is you can't answer because you know that that the answer is that globalization will never help Americans - it will continue to destroy the middle class until there is nothing left - just the rich and the working poor.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
What is GONE the way of the dodo is the old economy where the socialist proposals favored by almost every poster here could work their destruction on our country and where free-traders like me would simply have to suffer the consequences of living with the anti-immigrationists here. Now, the founding fathers' dreams of liberty are going to bear more freedom fruit in the form of destroying the anti-immigrationists socialists who have deluded themselves into believing that they are American. Ha!
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Okay, so let's have a little reality check. The 'old economy' that got us through 200+ years, major wars etc - to become the richest, strongest nation in the history of the world is bad. You think that the founding fathers systems of tariffs that helped foster and sustain this great nation are bad socialist ideas.
And now the so called 'free-trade' system that is eliminating the middle class and enriching the wealthly like never before is good? And you think the founding fathers are happy seeing you globalist nut-jobs destroy what they fought so hard for?
You really need some therapy as you aren't seeing things straight.
>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>>
For a visual explanation of the truth in immigration, see: Beware the Brown Peril.
<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<<
Wow, that's one of the most racist anti-American things I've ever seen. As a sovereign nation we have the right and obligation to our citizens to secure the border and provide for the common defense against invasion. That's in another document those socialist anti-free-trade founding fathers of ours came up with.
Americans are not lazy or stupid. We will do ANY job put before us. But we can't compete with folks who will work for 3rd world wages in a 1st world country.
The globalist policies you espouse and relish in are pushing the working poor into homelessness and the middle class into the working poor while focusing more and more wealth in the hands of a few.
As the most generous country in the world with regards to legal immigration it really is an a slap in all our faces to call us xenophobes and worse for simply seeing that there is a problem (uncontrolled legal and illegal immigration) and trying to fix it.
Really sorry if putting a lid on immigration and visas is going to knock down your portfolio a point or two. Hopefully you'll be able to make do while the rest of us struggle to make ends meet.
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Down with the socialists alienated by free-trade in America. Deport them to the old-world socialist Utopia of their dreams!
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The Alice-In-Wonderland world you seem to live in does not bear any relation to reality. I hope that you will one day wake up and realize how wrong you were or how stupid you were for repeating the lies of the transnational globalists who are out to destroy this country so they can make a few more $$$.
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Looks like congratulations are in order. Senator Webb - please continue to do the right thing for working Americans and oppose all forms of employment visas and please work to lower immigration.
Now as long as Bush doesn't offer Lieberman the Secretary of Defense job (and the republican gov then appoints a republican to throw the Senate back to the republicans) we'll hopefully see some change in American - for the better!
The tech shortage was manufactured by the tech companies so they can lower their cost of business by importing cheaper foreign labor. I making the same salary I was in 1996, Half of what I was making in 2000. We the voters should make sure that we vote out those congressmen who are catering to the big business interest. Whether they be Democrat or Republican. I say no more H-1B visas and terminate the ones that are currently in place. Salaries are determined by supply and demand. As long as you can artifically create supply, salaries will remain low. Congratulations to Sen. Jim Webb. We need more people like him.
As to illegal immigration, prosecute the people that hire them. If there are no jobs for them, they will go home. Both parties are drooling over the prospects of making citizens of these people who will then return the favor by voting for them. If you perceive that I'm mad, you're right. My children are competing against the foreigners for an ever decreasing wage. I made more money in 2000 than I have made in the 6 years since. Do I blame the Republicans for the economic and political mess we're in? Damn right I do. I just hope the Dems can do something that helps the "middle class" instead of hurting us.
I used to be a DB2 DBA who is now out of the IT field altogether. After losing my job I tried finding full-time employment but I couldn't find any and I wasn't being picky either. I thought about working on a MS degree so I enrolled in that. To my dismay 98% of the graduates were from India receiving tuition waivers and stipeds. After seeing my alma matter school's IT program department enrollment dropping to about 25% of what it once was I left. Face it students aren't stupid and Bill Gates and others can't figure out why no one is interested in IT anymore, duh. I finally enrolled at a local junior college in a skilled trades program. I bet the advisor wondered what a 4.0 GPA with a degree in Computer Science was doing enrolled at a junior college. Needless to say I'm done with IT and the whole H1-B Visa crap. So when Microsoft and IBM, ITAA, and those supporters at www.competeamerica.com cry their song of not finding skilled workers I say tough. You crapped in the nest so live with it.
A few days ago I asked the HR in the organization that I work to give an add to hire an IT consultant in Connecticut. Amazingly we received too many resume that we couldn't find time to read them. Most were new commers to the US, and all could start the next day.
I found that the secret behind it is the companies that charge these poor guys some money to get them visa. Once they are in US they are on their own.
And it all happens at the time when too many american educated (mostly with student loan) are looking for job. What is happening to this country?
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